Curse

sweet555 · Jun 24, 2009, 09:42 AM // 09:42

There is one issue i would really like to adress, is the meta game. every single meta game we've had in a while, there is always one overpowered skill, one skill that almost every single GVG build consist of, and abuse the hell out of. For this meta, it seems to be mind blast and hexes. Now, mindblast seemed to be the most abused skill in the game. The skill was the same as it had been for a while (not sure if it actually had been buffed/nerfed before). This is kind of important in that everytime a skill gets nerfed say war endurance, we find a new skill that every guild can abuse the crap out of.

I remember hexes have always been a problem, but when anet buffed the crap out of PnH, we saw hexes die out, since PnH had an insane recharge time, and can make any hex useless. That skill eventually became overpowered, since teams became overly defensive, games started to last really really long, and so anet decided to nerf PnH again, which again, made hexes prevalent again.

Point of that rant was whether anet actually think about what they are nerfing, or are they just trying to fix problems such as attempting to fix hexes by buffing a skill and then having to nerf it again.

So my question(s) to the people reading this is, do you think the current meta is good with the mindblast eles, the hex overloads, and the dual paragons running emp removal, or do you think MB and hexes need to be nerfed again, or certain other skills need to be buffed?

Also, i kind of wonder, if everyone believes that the meta game actually adjusts itself? i.e since when MB eles became powerful, hexway seemed to be a pretty effective counter against it, and dual para with emp removal counters hexes, and MB eles counters dual paras.

And lastly, do you think the Devs actually pvp, and see what skills would frustrate them, or which skills are just way overpowered?

additonal questions welcomed, i would like everyones insight

urania · Jun 24, 2009, 10:11 AM // 10:11

I thought everyone had it figured out by now that the only reason Anet still buffs things is that they can have players discuss the ups and, more often, the downs of updates into oblivion, especially how overpowered the new buffed skills are, so that eventually, Anet nerfs those very same skills again, be it a smiter-boon or a woh-type of nerfing - both processes stretching across several months a.k.a buying time till GW2 comes out and making sure to keep the ppl playing the game by providing a "dynamic" meta, which is basically a meta made of extremes - utterly useless or obviously overpowered skills.
I guess that people responsible for updating and balancing out the game prefer the above strategy instead of actually doing something useful, like e.g. fixing hex stacking and 28 minute limit in gvg, or giving some love to formerly great arenas like TA.

Lux Aeterna · Jun 24, 2009, 10:45 AM // 10:45

This is pretty much how balance in online games always is, the difference between GW and most others is that GW is intentionally balanced by the devs, unlike some games which aren't balanced at all.

Think CS, every game has an awp.

Only exception I've ever played is Tribes, but even then there were balance issues regarding heavy offense.

Killamus · Jun 24, 2009, 10:50 AM // 10:50

What's wrong with hex stacking? Should it be like weapon spells, with only one on a person at a time?
Or do you want it more like overlapping the same condition, i.e. if someone is hexed with VoR and Backfire, that when the person uses a spell, they only take 120ish damage instead of 220ish from VoR + backfire?

Hex stacking works well, they just need to make hexes slightly less... Useful? Now they're stupidly hard to counter, even in PvE, unless you devote an elite to it. Which makes me wonder, why hasn't divert hexes, blessed light, or signet of removal come into play? All slightly less effective then PnH previously, but all very effective at spike heals(SoR excepted) and hex/condition removal.

Oath · Jun 24, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

What's wrong with hex stacking? Should it be like weapon spells, with only one on a person at a time?
Or do you want it more like overlapping the same condition, i.e. if someone is hexed with VoR and Backfire, that when the person uses a spell, they only take 120ish damage instead of 220ish from VoR + backfire?

Hex stacking works well, they just need to make hexes slightly less... Useful? Now they're stupidly hard to counter, even in PvE, unless you devote an elite to it. Which makes me wonder, why hasn't divert hexes, blessed light, or signet of removal come into play? All slightly less effective then PnH previously, but all very effective at spike heals(SoR excepted) and hex/condition removal.

If you haven't been aware already, VoR had been nerfed in a way that simply rejects its use with other mesmer hexes; i.e. it cannot be stacked upon other mesmer hexes to allow for extreme hex-stacks. Therefore, I believe ArenaNet has already addressed some of the hex-stacks issues by reducing the efficiency of VoR with other mesmer hexes, and obviously the energy increase of LC, which has pretty much put it out of the current meta.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jun 24, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Divert hexes is too narrow an elite to be used (if you don't face hexes it's a complete waste of a skill), it's also easy to interrupt.

Blessed light is nice, i used to use it but you'll run out of energy - it's expensive and doesn't heal enough following the power creep.

As for signet of removal...do i need to say anything?

dusanyu · Jun 24, 2009, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Problem with Hexes will always be too much effect for very little input This can be fixed by either Weakening the hexes or make them more Expensive to cast.

The biggest Problem i see with hexes however is they are too easy to play and they are far far too overpowered when stacked. The number of hexes placed on one Person needs to be limited (two Sounds good) But lets not just kill hex stacking just limit stacking in a fun way make the hex caster loose 50% of its health for going over two hexes this wont Kill hex builds but it will make them more challenging and force more tactical usage of hexes.

as far as mind blast, is it mind blast that is the problem or the other skills that are used with it? (immolate does Far more damage than mind blast itself) secondly how do you touch it without making the Skill completely worthless an any venue?

how about this

Mind Blast
5e 1c 5r
Elite Spell. Target foe is struck for 15...51...60 fire damage. If you have more Energy than target foe, you gain 1...3...6 Energy.

Immolate
10e 1c 6r
Spell. Target foe is struck for 20...64...75 fire damage and is set on fire for 1...3...3 seconds.

the above changes don't completely kill the mind blast bar but reducces the ability to spam mind blast and immolate in half.

Johny bravo · Jun 24, 2009, 01:42 PM // 13:42

With this many skills in the game there are naturally going to be certain bars that are more effective then others. Sames goes with skills, it is not that MB is terribly over powered its how well it works to fuel that rest of the bar. On that point it is an elite so it should be better then normal skills anyway.

No one really wants balanced anyway they just want to complain that certain bar makes it hard for them to play the way they want.

If you want balance take all of the skills away, make all the weapons do the same damage, equal out the armor, and fall asleep after you target and hit the space bar.

Almost every type of game has a meta, including real life. Once a typical style is found to be effective more people use it and it become prevalent in the game. Then if the people in charge don't like how it is going they change the rules (balance if you will). Take hockey for example a few years ago it was very defensive the trap was stuffing up the game and making it a little boring to watch. What happened, they opened up the ice, changed some rules, and teams adapted to that style of play. What do you see now.... a faster paced game and less teams running a trap style defense.

That being said sometimes skills do become overpowered to the extent they do much more then intended. MB is not one of these skills, and hexes aren't one of those mechanics. Both can be dealt with without designing a build specifically for that

Menlai Littiz · Jun 24, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

The thing that i hate about the current meta is how absolutely limited monks are in RA and TA, I mean pvx wiki has a grand total of 2 builds... both centered around the same idea -.- seriously anet do you really hate monks?... PnH is pretty useless now due to the lack of healing tht comes on the bar and atm any monk doing TA is hardly going to get a flawless win against another organized team due to the absolute monk hating ive seen... check this out... Life transfer + blackout + RTL spike -.- how is a monk ever gonna beat tht...

bungusmaximus · Jun 24, 2009, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menlai Littiz

The thing that i hate about the current meta is how absolutely limited monks are in RA and TA, I mean pvx wiki has a grand total of 2 builds... both centered around the same idea -.- seriously anet do you really hate monks?... PnH is pretty useless now due to the lack of healing tht comes on the bar and atm any monk doing TA is hardly going to get a flawless win against another organized team due to the absolute monk hating ive seen...

TA has 1 monk only in most teams, in 8vs8 formats there's at least 1 other monk to pick up slack. In TA disabling the enemy monk for x time usually means win. Only way to counter that is monk hate-hate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menlai Littiz

Life transfer + blackout + RTL spike -.- how is a monk ever gonna beat tht...

The monks team can beat it with interrupts, KD locks on hexers, positioning (ie. don't let @ssholes near your monk). Monks usually heal in arenas, except for guardian, damage mitigation is done with linebacking, blind, snares, ranger stances and whatnot.

Agreed that arena monk bars are dull though, but I find the team play that comes with keeping monks out of trouble kinda exciting tbh.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 24, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Regarding GvG....

First problem is the new WIN condition/alternative(Lord damage) and the playerbase not making builds to kill it specifically, like during the VOD times, but why should they?

Second problem is no VOD, and I'm not talking about the whole deal with the NPC's/Guild Lord walking out to flag stand, it's rather the lack of the old VOD shout, increased dmg and decreased health. Incorporating that alone once again (the VOD shout) would allow for other builds to be of a decent choice if played(Spike builds/pressure spike builds).

Currently with the lack of the above and the boring time consuming nature of playing for Lord damage is really taking a toll on the meta game and build choices.

Furthermore the Mind Blast template has been buffed since the last time it saw play, Immolate dmg increase and Aura of Restoration to fuel some self heals+energy+cover enchant, this further promotes the use of the template and the whole win mechanic of sitting in a base causing lord dmg whenever you can.

Hexes in general have always been a problem, risk vs reward of those templates favors the reward side way too much.

I'm pretty sure everyone scratched their heads when they saw LC+pnh+WK+Mark of Insecurity get buffed when we have been in an overall balance update cycle over the last 2 years toning hexes down.

I'm almost torn about the lack of VOD including npc's walking playing a part in the old GW we had. Sure it's very last few months of play people decided to build around it, yet now we almost faced with the same thing. Except now your options or underdog Guilds/builds/tactics have a lesser role in completing the win conditions, during vod you saw many comebacks, body blocks, straight up out spiking Guilds or even well placed Lord ganks, those times are mostly gone.

Revelations · Jun 25, 2009, 01:16 PM // 13:16

As Echoman mentioned, a lot of these builds are designed around the retarded tiebreaker mechanic. Though it is probably superior to NPC farming, it really does make for stupid matches, especially if they last to hit about 25-26 minutes.

As a slight aside, for a couple of months the Guild Lord walked to stand alone. This seemed like a relatively stable middle ground and seems like a better tiebreak than 26 minute zergrush where both teams are desperately asking themselves who got more damage? Any idea on why this was removed?

sweet555 · Jun 25, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

VoD was prolly removed just because teams started using AOE, NPCs blew up, splinter weapon... etc, dervs, stuff like that. I mean sure the current tiebreaker system isnt the greatest, but at least to me it makes a bit of sense. I dont know why matches just cant end in a tie though, with neither team gaining or losing rating. maybe that would change the meta game?

Kiluna · Jun 25, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingkong2006

If you haven't been aware already, VoR had been nerfed in a way that simply rejects its use with other mesmer hexes; i.e. it cannot be stacked upon other mesmer hexes to allow for extreme hex-stacks. Therefore, I believe ArenaNet has already addressed some of the hex-stacks issues by reducing the efficiency of VoR with other mesmer hexes, and obviously the energy increase of LC, which has pretty much put it out of the current meta.

Wait what, it cannot be stacked anymore with other mesmer hexes? So are you saying that ~130 dmg from backfire plus 40 from VoR is worse than with just the ~130 from the backfire without VoR?

Same thing with VoR + empathy on melee, its still worth of it in my eyes, As 50+40 on skill use IS better than just 50.

Revelations · Jun 25, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweet555

VoD was prolly removed just because teams started using AOE, NPCs blew up, splinter weapon... etc, dervs, stuff like that. I mean sure the current tiebreaker system isnt the greatest, but at least to me it makes a bit of sense. I dont know why matches just cant end in a tie though, with neither team gaining or losing rating. maybe that would change the meta game?

I meant post real VoD. When only the lords walked and fought it out at stand for a couple of months. The rest of the npcs sat in base. It seemed better than either full VoD or 26minute zergrush. I'm probably missing something though.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 25, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

I meant post real VoD. When only the lords walked and fought it out at stand for a couple of months. The rest of the npcs sat in base. It seemed better than either full VoD or 26minute zergrush. I'm probably missing something though.

Nah you weren't delusional. The problem during that time though was splitting took way too long to kill npcs+turtled healers to even make a dent/threat to kill Lord pre 24 minutes, only for the Lord to walk to stand where 8v8 builds modded to tank and dwindle a lord down.

I can't seem to remember though if since then, the Guild halls also got a tweak and certain archers+footmen got removed, if it was pre or post that time.

Since then though the Lord's Amulet has been tweaked, defense has been tweaked, base defender healers have been toned down in effectiveness.

I'd still be up for tweaking what we currently have, try adding in VOD shout increase dmg+lower hp around 22-24 minutes.

Syron · Jun 25, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

I'd still be up for tweaking what we currently have, try adding in VOD shout increase dmg+lower hp around 22-24 minutes.

I don't like the idea of lowered max-hp. It buffs spike-builds too much.
I'd rather want increased dmg + lowered healing. It still gives spikes an advantage, but splits and pressure-builds would also benefit from that shout.

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 25, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

how about this

Mind Blast
5e 1c 5r
Elite Spell. Target foe is struck for 15...51...60 fire damage. If you have more Energy than target foe, you gain 1...3...6 Energy.

Immolate
10e 1c 6r
Spell. Target foe is struck for 20...64...75 fire damage and is set on fire for 1...3...3 seconds.

Mind Blast- Recharge only to 3, the rest is good

Immolate- No, because your looking at the mind blast build version of immolate, but im looking at general fire eles. If immolate were to have double the recharge, truthfully flare would actually be the next best choice. With 0 recharge, 5 energy, and almost as much damage (mark of rodgort if you want burning), flare would be twice as good as immolate.

My suggestion would be to only increase immolates recharge to 4, then it would not be as spammable.

Burton2000 · Jun 25, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweet555

I dont know why matches just cant end in a tie though, with neither team gaining or losing rating. maybe that would change the meta game?

The main reason is because of the AT system. What happens if its a draw in a play off round? Then it goes to a coin flip who goes through and guilds would certainly not want that.

However matches can end in ties if no lord damage is done or if both guild lords die within 1 second of each other. Its just extremely unlikely to happen.

FoxBat · Jun 25, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

It shouldn't be a surprise that there are always best approaches and best builds, no matter how closely balanced the skills are. If you've played primal, coward, or battle rage, they're all fairly decent axe bars, but evisc continues to dominate GvG. The difference is quite small, but the best players will always play the best bars for the situation. Whatever this myth about "personal preference" allowing build choice in a competitive game is exactly that, a myth.

There's only a few potential sources of build variety in the game, and most "good" players have complained very vocally about them.

1) Buildwars. X has an advantage over Y has an advantage over Z has advantage over X. Now you can choose between X, Y, or Z based on what you think you're going to face. Potentially a very strong factor in tournies and there have been some upsets from this in the past. Really in the grand scheme this is pretty small though, as even psuedo-balanced builds have the basic tools to counter most anything, and anything that can't be countered by that approach has typically been nerfed. Not that there always were hard-counters available, but people have whined about the mere concept of a hard-counter, not even addressing what may make the concept difficult to implement effectively in GW. (8 skill slots and no multiple match/sideboarding)

2) Effective low-ceiling gimmick bars, like the 4r 4s cripple palm strike. Any moron can be quite effective at the bar, but it will still fall to skilled players on higher-ceiling bars. The amount/degree of this is artificially limited by everyone aping what they see on obs. Alot of casual guilds could lame a ton of wins with a variety of stupid builds if they really wanted to, but most only trust what they see on obs to work - if for no other reason than they have no idea how to make their own builds and have nothing to copy. Still whenever one of these gets real popular, it tends to get nerfed eventually.

3) Hono(u)r, people refusing to run the best builds because they are either too boring or "beneath" them or whatever. Top guilds citing this is a condemnation of GW as a competitive game, but at times they have so there it is. It will keep people playing "balance" even when it's not the best choice.

In short I'm not very confident that we will ever have good build diversity in competitive play. Whatever elements GW has to promote diversity (and they are limited) are generally hated, so I'm not sure what people are asking for. HA and TA are alike in having a fairly set definition of "balance" and a diversity of low-ceiling gimmicks, yet everyone complains about those formats and no-one plays them. Really they only place you're going to find diversity is the random modes, where you can run 95% efficient builds and blame the last 5% on your teammates.